Dollhouse/Whedon feminism meta

[51stcenturyfox]

There is an interesting discussion taking place on viorica8957  's journal.  Non-flamey, both sides. There are spoilers for the pilot present.

"They're saying that the idea of the Dollhouse makes them uncomfortable because it represents the ideal of a woman being utterly passive and fulfilling any (presumably male) fantasy. The Stepford Wives deals with a similar concept. The reason that this is problematic is because it robs the women of all of their autonomy, and places them under the complete control of someone else- and as far as we've seen, the "someone else" has always been a man. The thing is, saying that one thing Joss has done makes them uncomfortable doesn't mean that they're dismissing all of Joss's work as misogynistic, and that's an important distinction to make."

Check out dollhouse_meta  too, if you're interested.

Comments

[eviinsanemonkey.livejournal.com]

Hmm...

I haven't watched Dollhouse yet, but isn't there a point to all that that they haven't gotten to yet? (at least, that would by my theory). I feel like it's too early to write the show off like that. How many episodes have aired? One? Two? (*is very behind on the times*), we've no idea where they plan on taking it yet...

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know. It'll be interesting to see the show evolve, though.

I really want to create fic for it, so I hope it sticks around.

[eviinsanemonkey.livejournal.com]

I shall have to watch it, soon, 'cause knowing Joss, there will be twists galore.

[lionessvalenti.livejournal.com]

Even if those twists are EVERY CHARACTER YOU LOVE DIES!

Joss is good for that.

[eviinsanemonkey.livejournal.com]

I'm still mourning Wash...

[lionessvalenti.livejournal.com]

Wash. Tara. Damn you, Joss. Why do we keep watching his shows?

[eviinsanemonkey.livejournal.com]

He's so good at crafting plots and characters we like?

I still have to finish watching Buffy.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Ooops. Sorry about the Buffy spoilers.

(I like spoilers, myself. I'm a weirdo.)

[eviinsanemonkey.livejournal.com]

Eh, I don't care so much about spoilers at this point. I just want to get a chance to watch the rest of the show, I don't care how much I know about it in advance...

Besides, it's hard to avoid spoilers for a show that old.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I was SO angry about Tara dying.

Come to think of it, Anya, too.

[lionessvalenti.livejournal.com]

Oh, the Tara!death pissed me off, too. When it came to the finale, I knew at least someone was going to die, and I was like "Okay, I can deal with Anya dying" because she was never one of my favorites (I wasn't spoiled, that was before I read spoilers), but then when it happened? I handled it very poorly.

That episode makes me cry. The whole thing.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yes, I did as well.

Plus, "let's kill the gay characters" never wins and it's so COMMON.

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

I was a little confused by the idea of the show Dollhouse when I first saw previews--thinking this is so blatantly sexist, is Whedon trying to make a point about sexism or is he just having a fantasy fest.

After having sort of half watched the first episode, it seemed lame and exploitive, and frankly kind of dumb--why did those people need a totally hot hostage negotiator. Like the fact that she was totally hot seemed unnecessary and also unacknowledged. If I ordered up a hostage negotiator and Eliza D. showed up, I or someone like me would go WOW! or at least raise eyebrows to someone around me.

On the other hand when she was showering, there seemed to be beefcake (guys) showering in there with her--as if there are also hot dudes one could order up. So, at least there would be equal exploitation or something.

[Nice to see people love Wash. He was hilarious in Firefly. Check out his audition reel on the extras. The guy is a freakin' comedic genius. I have seen that actor in some indie pics, and the guy is a total cut up. Totally hilarious! See Death at a Funeral if you haven't yet.]

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

If we're relating this to slavery or human trafficking, male or female actives are beside the point, too.

I tend to lean toward the post-feminist end of the scale here, since I tend not to see people (not dead people) and not gender, though I do cheer on female heroism in fictional portrayals.

[wiredblowfish.livejournal.com]

I like the implication that Echo will begin to search for her own self (identity). I loved that theme in Firefly with Rain.

I am going to keep watching it.

Question: why did they give echo asthma? That seems like a major flaw for a hostage negotiator. Like I said I was only half watching, so I think I missed the point of that.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

They should have given her tinnitus. Because. Echo.

God, that was a stupid joke. I'm sorry, Pete Townshend.

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

But Stepford Wives, and Dollhouse, present this as a metaphor for the entrapment of women in cultural expectations-- NOT as what should be, goodness knows. I have little doubt that the Dollhouse residents are going to get their freedom in the end, probably breaking free.

It's hardly anti-feminist to metaphorize oppression. Are we just supposed to ignore it? I can't help but think that if it were, say, Doris Lessing writing Dollhouse, it would be seen as a great feminist story.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I can't help but think that if it were, say, Doris Lessing writing Dollhouse, it would be seen as a great feminist story.

That's an excellent, excellent point.

How much of a feminist does a man have to be to be a feminist? Joss IS a feminist.

How about Toshiko in Torchwood? She didn't exactly sign up on her own steam. (Torchwood or prison? Gee. Difficult decision.)

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

is this a bad time to mention all the male dolls inside the Dollhouse?

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Oh yes... it was addressed in the meta.

But of course the male dolls weren't in the spotlight for the pilot so... well, I guess some people won't give this a chance to develop.

I'd love to see relationships develop between the dolls (of whichever gender). That could be very intriguing.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

ah...missed that when I posted. sorry.

a lot of things weren't in the spotlight - Alpha barely got a mention, for example.

sounds quite interesting - how do relationships and interactions progress when anything and everything can be deleted and added? :)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Pure speculation, but I think there will have to be some kind of unexpected growing self-awareness among the dolls, or this program will be the same old thing every week.

Bonus if the self-awareness is kept secret from the handlers and results in another layer of drama. (Or... bigger bonus if the mindwashing doesn't really work on one of them.)

I'd love to sit in on Joss' writer meetings. Fly on that wall!

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link! Reminds me of the folks who were upset with Joss for 'fridging' Penny in DHSAB.

I'm a day late and a dollar short here as usual, but at least that means that I've seen the second eppy of Dollhouse now. Creepier than the first, but not much more interesting.

Joss says we have to wait until the second half of the half-season before the show hits its stride.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Joss would! I haven't seen Ep II yet - following a Torchwood feminism meta discussion (and trying to clean the house between LJ sessions).

My darling husband informed me tonight that we're (maybe) having a two-week houseguest, possibly arriving on Sunday! Uh. Yay?

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

Wait, what? There's feminism in Torchwood? Where would this be found, exactly?

Oh dear, houseguests. See, this is when cyberconversion units in secret basement hideaways become useful...

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Heh! OMG what a great icon.

More like feminism as it relates to slash writing in Torchwood. It's interesting!

http://lefaym.livejournal.com/40504.html

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

Good discussion. I read your comments, and tend to have the same take on things as you, because I've never been a victim of patriarchal crap either, and so I'm missing a lot of the hot buttons that other women have around these issues.

That said, now I'm completely rethinking my gun!porn fic where John penetrates Ianto's mouth with his pistol.

How embarassing.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yeah, YMMV on experiences.

Strangely, I'm writing a fic where Gwen pistol-whips the hell out of John. She probably won't penetrate him with it though.

But yours sounds hot! I'll read it when I have time later. I got caught up in beta reading something.

If it's hot and you warn, no big deal, IMO.

[andreth47.livejournal.com]

HA! See, phallic objects can express power without being penetrative! Go Gwennie. Nobody deserves a pistol-whipping more.

I think you read that fic of mine a while back, actually, so here, read this one instead. It's xtricks' new one, lovely exhibitionism kink, power imbalance that tips both ways. xtricks can write the porny!

Exhibit